Received: from relay1.UU.NET by relay1.geis.com with SMTP (15.11/15.6) id AA05664; Sat, 23 Jan 93 10:43:12 est Received: from uunet.uu.net (via LOCALHOST.UU.NET) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA10185; Sat, 23 Jan 93 10:40:33 -0500 Received: from cyan.UUCP by uunet.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 103724.3730; Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:37:24 EST Received: by vistachrome.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14654; Sat, 23 Jan 93 10:17:39 EST From: andy@vistachrome.com (Andrew Finkenstadt) Message-Id: <9301231517.AA14654@vistachrome.com> Subject: Coherent FAQ To: andy@genie.geis.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:17:38 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 59572 From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett) Date: 23 Jan 93 01:57:43 GMT Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent Subject: Coherent FAQ, General Information A N I N T R O D U C T I O N T O T H E C O H E R E N T F O R U M : Comp.os.coherent (Usenet) / Coherent list on ListServ@IndyCMS Rev. 2.3 A N I N T R O D U C T I O N T O C O H E R E N T General Information FAQ for the Coherent Operating System C O N T E N T S : What is Coherent? Will Coherent run on my system? What incompatibilities are known? Can I still run DOS? What about technical support? What revision is Coherent? How many people run Coherent? Can source postings be made in this newsgroup (comp.os.coherent)? Public domain software: Where do I get the public domain software? Heated discussions of the group: MISC: Disclaimer: Trademarks: A N I N T R O D U C T I O N T O C O H E R E N T ----------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT IS COHERENT? Coherent is a multi-tasking, multi-user operating system for IBM PC's and compatibles. It will run on most systems with a 286, 386, or 486 CPU. Coherent closely represents the Unix operating system, but, it is not Unix. Coherent appears to be very similar to Version 7 Unix, or for those of you that have not had the pleasure, close to System 5 Unix. Coherent includes uucp (Coherent to Coherent Copy) :) and many more functions you would expect with Unix. Coherent is small and simple, easy to maintain, and does not require extensive CPU resources to operate well. It does not have network nor X windows support, and does not require an AT&T license for Unix. It is as advertised, a quick, elegant Unix-like multi-tasking, multi-user Operating System, with good documentation. WILL COHERENT RUN ON MY SYSTEM? Coherent runs on just about all 286-386-486 systems. To list them here would make this document far too lengthy. It is suggested that if you are in doubt, buy Coherent, and when it is almost beyond a doubt that you can not run Coherent on your machine, to return the software and documentation to the the Mark Williams Company within 60 days for a full refund as per their policy. WHAT INCOMPATIBILITIES ARE KNOWN? IBM XT compatibles will not work, since the Coherent version 3.2 operating system uses the 286 protected mode. Coherent version 4.0 only works on 386 or 486 proccessors and operates in the 386 protected mode. Coherent will not run on an AT&T 6300, IBM PS/2 model, or with the Western Digital WD1004-27X (XT) or other XT controllers. Coherent exhibits a slight problem with some 386 AMI BIOS, whereas Coherent requires a cold boot (hit the reset switch, not CTL- ALT-DEL) to boot Coherent after previously running DOS. The latest revisions of the AMI BIOS may not exibit this problem. CAN I STILL RUN DOS? Yes, Coherent can reside on a disk partition separate from DOS, and likewise DOS on a partition separate from Coherent. You can boot either one at boot time via a "boot strap" program. They will not run concurrently however. DOS file systems are available to Coherent with the Coherent DOS command, so files can be transferred from DOS to Coherent, Coherent to DOS. WHAT ABOUT TECHNICAL SUPPORT? It is generally felt that Mark Williams Company provides excellent technical support of their software within the U.S.A.. They can be reached via phone (708) 291-6700, or email: uunet!mwc!support (General uucp address) support@mwc.com (Internet address) mwcbbs!support (from your system directly to the uucp connection they provided by the Mark Williams Company) WHAT REVISION IS COHERENT? Coherent is offered in two revisions. Revision 3.2 will run on systems with a 286 or higher processor, but does not take advantage of the 386 architecture, and has the 64K executable and 64K data limits. Revision 3.2 is the last revision of Coherent for the 286 protected mode OS. Bug fixes will continue to be posted to mwcbbs to support customers of the 3.2 version. COHERENT 4.0 was announced in May of 1992, and is targeted for the 386 and 486 processors. This revision does not have the 64K limits of revision 3.2, but, still does not include a virtual memory system that swaps pages out to disk. See the 4.0 specific FAQ posted with this FAQ for more information. Both versions of OS are available at $99.00, and updates from 3.2 to 4.0 are now priced at $79.00. HOW MANY PEOPLE RUN COHERENT? The Mark Williams Company has stated that the sales volume has passed 40,000 copies since its introduction to the market in 1990. CAN POSTINGS BE MADE IN THIS NEWS GROUP (COMP.OS.COHERENT)? It is somewhat accepted that source for Coherent will be posted in this news group occasionally. Keep in mind that large postings cost money to those that pay for telephone and connect time, so perhaps a short posting to query general interest should precede the posting. Direct mailing should be used if there is small interest, and a posting to archive sites such as raven.alaska.edu. If the interest is overwhelming, a posting to this news group may be in order, along with posting to an archive site such as raven.alaska.edu. Posting to this newsgroup has been a topic of constant debate... :( We hope to have a source news group for coherent, yet another topic of debate... :) PUBLIC DOMAIN SOFTWARE: Several public domain packages are available for use on a Coherent machine. These range from improved mailing packages and spread sheets, to at least four news programs, such as bsnews, cnews, gnews, wnews, along with readers such as rn, tass, tin and more. WHERE DO I GET THE PUBLIC DOMAIN SOFTWARE? There are several ways to get public domain software: 1. Mark Williams Company bbs (mwcbbs) 2. FTP sites 3. Mailserver (ListServ@IndyCMS) 4. The OZ / NZ Coherent Users Group 5. The Pacific Australian Coherent Users Group MWCbbs (mwcbbs) Access information on the mwcbbs is included in the documentation provided with Coherent. In short, it is a uucp site with public domain software as well as updates to the Coherent release, along with Coherent news (not usenet) and a "home" for all Coherent sites to uucp to. For most of us, that is a long distance phone call, as the Mark Williams Company is located in Illinois. FTP sites: Jay C. Beavers has been keeping the Coherent Archives for quite some time on the ftp site orca.alaska.edu, and has moved these to an Ultrix machine for better access (raven). When a previous ftp site was no longer available, Jay quickly put raven into action. Hats off to Jay! Machine I'net Address Archive administrator --------------- ------------- ---------------------------------- raven.alaska.edu 137.229.10.39 J.C. Beavers:sxjcb@orca.alaska.edu on raven: cd /pub/coherent MailServers: ListServ@IndyCMS has been offering a mailserver service since before the start of comp.os.coherent. It is a gateway between two nets: Machine Address Mailserver Administrator ------------------------------------ ------------------------ ListServ@IndyCMS (CREN) IJBH200@IndyVAX (CREN) ListServ@IndyCMS.IUPUI.Edu (Internet) IJBH200@IndyVAX.IUPUI.Edu (I) Coherent@IndyCMS is bidirectional gateway between the ListServ list Coherent and Usenet newsgroup comp.os.coherent co-owned and coordinated by John Harlan and Phil Corporon. All original postings to comp.os.coherent Usenet group are automatically distributed to the ListServ list, and everything posted to the ListServ list Coherent, is automatically posted to comp.os.coherent on Usenet. John Harlan humorously adds: "And all without mail looping :-)" To get a list of Coherent files from ListServ, mail the ListServ mailserver as follows, with the contents of the message being the mailserver command: % mail ListServ@IndyCMS.IUPUI.Edu Subject: (none) INDEX COHERENT Privately Owned BBSs: The Australian Coherent Users Group: (From: rjl@spectre.pub.uu.oz.au.) In order to support Coherent users in oz & nz, Mark Williams Co. have agreed to supply a mirror of the downloads directory from their uucp BBS in the states for distribution here [in Australia]. This is being supplied to the Australian Coherent User Group, initially in one 13MB chunk to get things kicked off, then subsequently updated on a monthly basis. Software is available to all registered Coherent users, and may be obtained either by direct UUCP transfer from this machine, or on 1.2MB floppies for a nominal media/postage charge. Anyone interested in this, or in ACUG in general, (as well as in APANA - the Australian Public Access Network Association) may contact me by email at rjl@spectre.pub.uu.oz.au. Australia-Pacific Coherent User Group. (Robert Chalmers. d10590@tanus.edu.au. Mackay, Queensland. Australia) ---------------------* ao zhong youyi wan sui *---------------------- Privately operated public uucp site, based in Mackay, North Queensland, Australia. The system connected 24 hours a 7 days a week, apart from some down time for maintenance. Purely Coherent system. Technical: 386-25DX, 4Mb RAM, 130Mb IDE HDD. 1 x 1.2, 1 x 1.44 FDD. Maestro 2400ZXR Modem. Wangtek Tape Drive.(not yet working).Cannon BJ330 bubble jet. Version 4.00 Coherent. Mono. Support: Robert can pass on internet fixes and messages to local users, such as this FAQ, and is a MIRROR site for MWC, receiving thly updates from MWC. Can supply elm, tin and wnews red. Contact details: (There are no fees or subscriptions involved.) APCUG nanguo!root (AUS) UUCP mwcbbs!nanguo!earth (USA) UUCP nanguo!root +61 79 521070 AEST:24 Hours. in:nuucp rd:uupublic MYNAME=bbsuser in your Permissions file. Info is in ~/INFO Home address: 22 Minster Street. Mackay. 4740 Queensland. Australia. ( The Coral Coast ) Currently the site supports uucp using a chat script exactly the same as the mwcbbs chat script listed in their manual. The public directory is really /usr/spool/uucppublic. The default directory is available for incoming material and the INFO file, which contains most of the details concerning me and the site. Direct login is also available using the following login and passwd. login: public passwd: coherent This is a public user area, mostly used by my students locally, but you are welcome to log in and leave mail. (mail root). Modem details are: 2400 N81. (v22bis). Please note that you MUST have MYNAME=bbsuser in the Permissions file for site nanguo and uucp, or Coherent will return a site unknown error. Even if you only uucp mail to me, mail nanguo!root, all are welcome to use these facilities for the exchange of information. Bob Chalmers. HEATED DISCUSSIONS OF THE GROUP: Mark Williams Company has a patent on bit ordering, which is a software patent. Most think that this is obvious art in software, and should not be patentable, not to mention a move in the software world (i.e., FSF) that "software" should not be patentable in the first place. The Mark Williams Company has committed to comment on this some time in the future. DISCLAIMER: ANY REFERENCE TO THIS ARTICLE, IN ANY FORM, IS PURELY AT YOUR OWN RISK! All opinions, tips, and instructions in this article are those of the contributors, and not of any company associated with the individual contributor, or any company mentioned in this article. The information contained within is not guaranteed to be free of errors in any way. The intention of this note is only to inform curious usenet readers about some aspects of the operating system of Coherent, and those companies mentioned are encouraged to add corrections, additions, or suggest deletions to this note to as per their policy or willingness to provide positive criticism. TRADEMARKS Unix is the trademark of AT&T / Unix System Laboratories, Inc. Coherent is the trademark of the Mark Williams Company. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike@array.com So much fun, so little time to enjoy it.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett) Date: 23 Jan 93 02:42:27 GMT Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent Subject: Re:Coherent FAQ, General Information After a long dry spell of my postings not making it out, here are the FAQs. I realize I am less than punctual about posting these, but, after my upstream site changed news host names, not posting one made it out of here for nearly 3 months. We are not what you would call a high volume site, although incoming is usually near 40 megs a day, our outgoing doesn't make it past two or three postings a week. My last posting from an Internet host was unusual. Since I pay $$$ for time on that host I never read news there, and so I never had an idea that my postings never made it upstream. However, I have always verified that they were going to my site (minuet.omc.com) which is a down stream leaf node, and so I thought all was well. It wasn't. So if you are reading this, the FAQs should again start coming out in a semi-punctual manner, well, maybe even more punctual manner. The current FAQs are at REV 2.3. When I make a change to any FAQ, all the REVs roll to reflect them as a "set". This set had some formatting corrections and some input from Robert Chalmers is OZ. I appreciate the updates and corrections! I have received some offers for help with the FAQs, and I have forwarded my ideas to those people. I hope the quality and consistancy of the FAQ can be improved with a second set of eyes and effort. --Mike -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike@array.com So much fun, so little time to enjoy it.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett) Date: 23 Jan 93 01:59:38 GMT Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent Subject: Coherent FAQ Features and Sales Information for 4.X Features Overview FAQ for Rev 4.X FAQ Rev. 2.3 Comp.os.coherent (Usenet) / Coherent list on ListServ@IndyCMS Coherent Overview and Features: --------------------------------- COHERENT exists as two revisions. The 4.0.X revision supports the 386/486 architectures, and revision 3.X.X supports the 286 archi- tecture. Coherent 4.0 capitalizes on the 386 and 486 architecture, and Coherent 3.2 allows users to run Coherent on the 286 architecture as well as 386 and 486 CPUs, but, is limited to 64K memory seg- ments. COHERENT 4.0 FEATURES OUTLINE: ------------------------------ - 32-bit flat address space (386 native mode). - Virtual consoles and multi-session support. - Support for third-party C++, COBOL, FORTRAN and BASIC compilers. - Monolithic K&R C compiler with in memory temp files (it's fast!). - Fully documented assembler supports conditional assembly, listings and assembly time variables. - Optimizing linker. - Terminfo support. - Record locking. - Enhanced buffer cache. - New async driver supports up to 32 ports. - over 200 UNIX commands, - Bourne and Korn shells - vi, MicroEMACS, sed, ed - 386 assembler, awk, lex, yacc, m4 - linker, archiver, assembly language debugger, make - UUCP, ckermit - ar, cpio, tar, compress, uncompress, zcat - nroff, troff with LaserJet and Postscript support. - Many Berkeley utilities - International and user-definable keyboard support. - Improved DOS utilities support DOS 5.0 filesystems. - Built-in support for multi-user cards made by ARNET Corp., Comtrol Corp., Connect Tech, DigiBoard, GTEK, Sea Level Systems and other third party vendors. INSTALL NOTES/MORE on FEATURES: ---------------------------- COHERENT 4.0 The entire distribution consists of 6 floppy disks and installs in under 1 hour. (Possibly longer for most of us) COHERENT will run on machines with 1MB of RAM and 20MB hard disks. The more ram and disk you have, the better it runs. COHERENT 4.0 runs on most 386 and 486 ISA/EISA based IBM compatible computers. 8 bit SCSI from Future Domain and Seagate are supported, as are IDE, RLL, MFM, ESDI and Perstor hard disk controllers. 16 bit controllers such as the Adaptec 154X, DPT Smart Connex SCSI host adapter (WD emulation) and the DPT Smart Cache Plus EISA 16 bit bit (WD emulation). Future support will include the Always IN2000 and the Future Domain 16 bit SCSI host adapters. COHERENT 4.0 requires a minimum of 1 MB of RAM and will support systems with up to 16MB of RAM. It works with monochrome, CGA, EGA, and VGA/SVGA displays. COHERENT's kernel is around 100K. COHERENT 4.0's new features is a development system which produces System V Intel BCS compliant COFF binaries that run on many other compliant PC UNIX systems, such as The Santa Cruz Operation's (SCO) SCO UNIX System V/386 Version 3.2.2, a licensee of AT&T's System V UNIX. COHERENT 4.0's development tools include an optimizing C compiler, a new optimizing linker, and versions of lex, yacc, awk, make as well as termcap, terminfo and curses. COHERENT 4.0 also comes with a new 386 macro-assembler. The assembler is fully documented and supports conditional assembly, listings, and assembly time variables. COHERENT 4.0 also contains versions of the traditional UNIX text processing utilities, nroff and troff, along with support for the LaserJet(PCL) and PostScript. COHERENT comes with UUCP, ckermit and kermit. COHERENT's administrative commands include several archiving utilities, a Bourne shell, a Korn shell, System V style cron, virtual console support, on-line manual pages and many of the popular Berkeley utilities. COHERENT 4.0 has built in support for multi-user cards made by ARNET Corp., Chase Research, Inc., Comtrol Corp, Connect Tech, Inc., DigiBoard, GTEK, Inc., Sea Level Systems, Specialix Corp., Sritek, Inc., and Stargate Technologies. COHERENT SALES CONTACTS: ------------------------ Mark Williams Company continues to make every effort to keep the price of COHERENT down and to provide customers with maximum value. COHERENT 4.0 costs $99.95. This price includes unlimited free technical support, an unlimited user license, and a 1200 page manual. Registered users can upgrade to COHERENT 4.0 from COHERENT 3.2 for $79.95. COHERENT 4.0, and the COHERENT 4.0 up- date, are available from the Mark Williams Company, 60 Revere Drive, Northbrook, Illinois, 60062, United States of America. (If ordering, tell us the size of your 'A' drive. Update custo- mers are required to also include their serial number.) Phone; 1-800-627-5967 or.. 1-708-291-6700 Fax; 1-708-291-6750 For Sales Literature or electronic ordering, e-mail complete mailing address to... sales@mwc.com or uunet!mwc!sales For specific technical information, e-mail... (No literature sent.) support@mwc.com or uunet!mwc!support Compuserv; 76256,427 BIX; join mwc Internet Forum; comp.os.coherent COHERENT is a registered trademark of the Mark Williams Corporation. Intel386 is a registered trademark of Intel Corporation. UNIX is a registered trademark of UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. SCO is a registered trademark of the Santa Cruz Operation. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike@array.com So much fun, so little time to enjoy it.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett) Date: 23 Jan 93 02:01:37 GMT Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent Subject: Coherent FAQ, Technical Info for Version 3.2 T E C H N I C A L T I P S F O R C O H E R E N T 3.2 Technical Tips FAQ for Rev 3.2 of Coherent Comp.os.coherent (Usenet) / Coherent list on ListServ@IndyCMS FAQ Rev. 2.3 C O N T E N T S : ----------------- Modem devices: Remote logins: Fast modems: Simultaneous users: Usenet news software: Email packages: The 64K question: Compiler hints: Hardware configurations: Termio hints: Curses: More uucp: How to create a bootable >>>R/W<<< floppy from Coherent: Master Boot Reinstallation: Line Printer Help: Moving data from a Sun to Coherent: Multi-Volume Archive: SCSI MKFS Notes: DOS to Coherent: Uuinstall Bug Help: Xwindows: Tar Help: Setting Boot Partition: DOS or Coherent? A Backup Script: MISC: Disclaimer: Trademarks: T E C H N I C A L T I P S : ----------------------------------------------------------------------- MODEM DEVICES: Q: What devices should I use with a modem for dialing in / dialing out A: For dialing in you should use a device with modem control. For example com1r or com2r. That is important to ensure that when the calling site dropped carrier, that also at your site SIGHUP is sent to already running processes, to ensure that the modem hangs up (dropping DTR) and a new getty is opened on that port to enable further logins. For dialing out or local terminals you do not need modem control Also you do not have to worry about cabling problems, just use some of those null modem cables available in most computer stores. REMOTE LOGINS: Q: How do I enable logins via modem to my machine: A: I assume that modem is set to AUTO-ANSWER (ATS0=1) and the cabling is ok. Edit the file /etc/ttys. Here an example for com2: 0rPcom2r 0 = not yet enabled (enable = allow login, run getty) r = remote access (will enable asking of a password for remote-access (see /etc/passwd) Why ? System security, additional password P = speed (your modem is connected to the computer) P = 9600 Baud, I use this for my Telebit Modem com2r = device with modem control, when CARRIER is lost it will sent SIGHUP to all processes running on that line and will also drop DTR so a modem hangup or a modern modem does a hardware reset. Now type the following: enable com2r (for Coherent 3.2 that's enough) kill -1 1 (Coherent 3.0.0 or 3.1.0, Process INIT will start a getty on com2r) FAST MODEMS: Q: Can I use fast modems with Coherent 3.2? A: Yes you can. But you must think about the following: a) maximum Baud rate between modem - machine is 9600 Baud (Coherent as a multiuser/multitasking environment is not fast enough for 19200 Baud) b) cps-rates in transfer depend on modem/method calling into my machine (T2500) with a USR, using sz for transfer: 480 cps to 600 cps (compressed, uncompressed files) calling out with uucp (T2500): 860 cps The rate may differ if you use a slow 286 or 386. The above results were yielded with a 386/33. SIMULTANEOUS USERS: Q: I want to use Coherent 3.2 as a multiuser operating system. How many users can work with it at the same time ? A: Now 11 User: console : 1 com1 : 1 com2 : 1 Multiport : 8 -------------- 11 USENET NEWS SOFTWARE: Q: Is there any Net-News Software for Coherent ? A: Yes, there are several packages available: CNEWS - the famous package difficult to install (although there is a nice installation script in the Coherent version). Only for advanced users ! Has no reader ! WNEWS 3.0 - News for MINIX, ported to Coherent based on BNEWS - small, not bad Has no reader rn the well known newsreader tass curses based newsreader. Nice, but you should not have too much groups or articles in /usr/spool/news. bsnews small news package for receiving news via email and others... EMAIL PACKAGES: Q: I do not like Coherent's mailer. What can I use instead of it ? A: WMAIL 3.63 - a minix port, MAILX-clone comb 1.29 - curses based mailer, nice interface You should ensure that in both cases you have smail 2.5 as a smart-mailer that understands domain addresses. smail 2.5 is already in Coherent 3.2 THE 64K QUESTION: Q: Does Coherent really have a 64 kb limitation ? I want to port the GNU-C-Compiler and compile big programs. A: Coherent programs are limited to 64 K for code and 64 k for data and stack. The limit is not in the compiler, it's in the kernel or at least in the actual system design. No process can exceed this limitation. But Binaries in Coherent are about 40 % smaller so big programs for "Real-UNIXES" may also be portable COMPILER HINTS: Q: I write a C-program that seems to be ok but it still core dumped. Is this a compiler error ? Is my program wrong ? A: If a program needs a lot of space for local data (resided on the stack in most cases) then the maximum size for the stack may be exceeded and your return addresses or other important things were overwritten. With the program fixstack you can increase the size for the stack (and also cut the space for data) Try size my_prog before and after fixstacking to see the difference. HARDWARE CONFIGURATIONS: Q: What hardware (Motherboard, hard disk) do I need for Coherent ? A: Difficult question. Minimum is a AT 286 with 640 KB RAM and a hard disk (MFM,RLL,ESDI,SCSI (some), IDE (some)) with at least 10 MB free disk space. Nevertheless Coherent is not the fastest operating system, so a 386 with at least 25 MHZ and 4 MB RAM and a fast hard disk (a hard disk is always too small !!!!) is the minimum config- uration for a usable multi-user-operating. TERMIO HINTS: Q: I compiled a program that uses termio but it did not work. A: The termio in Coherent (at least 3.1.0 and the first 3.2.0) did not work in all cases. So try the sgtty, that works fine. When porting programs try to find the -DBSD-parts. There you will find in most cases the sgtty-parts you need for porting. CURSES: Q: I compiled a program that uses curses but the screen sometimes get garbled or the machine seems to hang A: Maybe you still have an old libcurses.a. Replace it with a newer copy. MORE UUCP: Q: I often loose email or files after receiving them with UUCP. A: Try to get the newest UUCP-update from MWCBBS. The old packages still have some problems. Check the permissions, at least for example with comparing them with those on your original diskettes. Check also the permissions of the needed directories. In /usr/spool/uucp/Logs./uucp-program you will find the "hints" of the "uucp-program" (uucico, uucp, uux,uuxqt) what goes wrong. In Coherent 3.2. you have the program uucheck that will check your uucp-installation and is also able to "fix" problems. But you have to run it twice if you run it as root because the first time it creates the needed directories and the second run sets the correct permission. Q: I am having a problem connecting to uucp sites not running Coherent after updating to Coherent 3.2. The error looks like a parity problem, with an {expect} / {actually got} output like: uu315323t 342og310n: (With backslashes before the numbers) Again, get the latest UUCP package from MWCBBS. The 3.2 Coherent release may exhibit a parity problem which is cured with the latest uucp release. HOW TO CREATE A BOOTABLE >>>R/W<<< FLOPPY from Coherent From: Peter Fillingham fillingham@att.com The COHERENT Operating System Release Notes (Release 3.1.0) along with the main manual suggest ways of creating a bootable floppy. One difficulty of this procedure is that, after producing a bootable floppy, one can't write to it ! The following shell programs are suggested as a way making a bootable floppy, and below is the fix recommended by mwc for making the bootable floppy system read-write. (0) first boot your system from your hard disk, login in as root, use mkdir to make a convenient subdirectory [e.g., /bin/temp ]. cd to /bin/temp. Place disk #1 of your mwc original floppies in drive A:, then enter dd if=/dev/fha0 of=cohboot count=80 bs=30b Run it in the background if you wish [follow the above line with an &; use ps -axfl if you are curious]. This will take just over three minutes depending on the speed of your system. What is going on is that dd is creating an image of your boot floppy in you default directory with the file name cohboot. When it finishes, remove the mwc original floppy, and insert a blank disk. (1) Next run the following shell program: echo "/etc/fdformat -v /dev/fha0" /etc/fdformat -v /dev/fha0 echo "/etc/badscan -o proto /dev/fha0 2400" /etc/badscan -o proto /dev/fha0 2400 Run it in the background if you wish; it takes time. The echo lines simply display each command line just before it is carried out to tell you what is going on. The second and fourth lines format the floppy and check for bad blocks, respectively. In addition, a file (proto) is being built in your default subdirectory. This file will contain a list of the bad blocks: look for a line with %b in it. Probably it is best to use only a floppy with NO bad blocks: so try until you find one. (2) make sure you have a subdirectory /f0 on your hard disk; if not, use mkdir /f0. (3) Next run the following shell program: echo "/etc/mkfs /dev/fha0 proto" /etc/mkfs /dev/fha0 proto echo "cp /conf/boot.fha /dev/fha0" cp /conf/boot.fha /dev/fha0 echo "dd if=cohboot of=/dev/fha0 count=80 bs=30b" dd if=cohboot of=/dev/fha0 count=80 bs=30b echo "/etc/mount /dev/fha0 /f0" /etc/mount /dev/fha0 /f0 echo "cd /f0 " cd /f0 echo " DONE but f0 still mounted !" The second line produces the file system on the floppy using the information from file proto. The fourth line copies boot.fha to the floppy. The sixth line transfers the image of your system boot floppy to your newly formatted disk (note all these things take time). Finally, the floppy is mounted so that while you have booted from the hard disk and have root permissions you can write to the floppy. The last line simply rings the bell and tells you it is done. (4) next (noting that your default directory is /f0, i.e. the floppy disk) enter: mv begin autoboot then enter db coherent then enter ronflag the response is ronflag=001 then enter .=0 then a response appears ronflag=000 then enter :q and you should get back your prompt. (5) Finally while the floppy is still mounted, cp over your most useful programs to the appropriate directories (e.g., vi or me, du, df ...) Lastly umount f0, shutdown, sync and boot your writable floppy. MASTER BOOT REINSTALLATION: From: doug@mwc.com (Doug Peterson) I want to upgrade the DOS partition from MS-DOS 3.3 to 5.0, and the installation program refuses to work with the Coherent master bootstrap program. It no longer asks for the ability to boot Coherent! The problem specifically is caused be Microsoft's faulty update install procedure. They assume you have no other operating system on the computer. When the 5.0 update install is run, the procedure archives the original master boot block of the hard drive and rewrites a brand new one. Problem is, it takes Coherent's master boot along with it. To restore the master boot is very simple: Use dos 5.0 fdisk to change the active partition to COHERENT. Reboot. Use COHERENT's fdisk utility with the -b option to rewrite a new master boot. Specifically; fdisk -b /conf/mboot /dev/at0x Once completed, you can now boot either system no matter which one is active or inactive. LINE PRINTER HELP: From: dave@uvm-gen!pete (Dave Peterson) I have my printer hooked up to lpt1 and cannot get any output. I have checked my files, but, no luck. What's the problem? 1) ls -li ( The i will list the inode number, this will tell you where you have linked /dev/lp to. ) 2) ln -f /dev/lpt2 /dev/lp ( link to lpt2 IBM and MWC number the ports differently thus lpt2 is the first printer ) [ you need to be root or bin to do the link ] This is a partial listing of my /dev directory note the first number is the inode number. I have linked lp to lpt2. 174 c-w--w--w- 2 bin bin 3 1 Mon Nov 25 17:36 /dev/lp 101 c-w--w--w- 1 bin bin 3 0 Fri Apr 27 1990 /dev/lpt1 174 c-w--w--w- 2 bin bin 3 1 Mon Nov 25 17:36 /dev/lpt2 173 c-w--w--w- 1 bin bin 3 2 Fri Apr 27 1990 /dev/lpt3 As a final point when you send data to /dev/lpt2 use pipes not redirection. Try cat (file) | /dev/lpt2 it works for me. MOVING DATA FROM A SUN TO COHERENT: (From: PINEAU@uqac.uquebec.ca (Louis Pineau)) First, the floppy have to be formatted whether on the sun or on the Coherent system (with fdformat /dev/rfd0c on the sun). Once the floppy is formatted, there is no need to reformat or mkfs it for the life of the floppy or until something unusual happens. To write and read the floppy, on both system (sun and coherent), I use the command "ustar" since it can handle multi-volume files (files that are too large to fit on a single floppy). Thus, on the sun, I do: /usr/5bin/ustar -cvf /dev/rfd0c file [files ...] to write on the floppy /usr/5bin/ustar -tvf /dev/rfd0c to list the floppy /usr/5bin/ustar -xvf /dev/rfd0c [file ...] to read the floppy On my coherent system, I use the same commands without the /usr/5bin prefix and with the proper floppy device (/dev/fva1 on my system). I know that there is a way to read or write ms-dos formatted floppy but in order to mount or unmount the floppy, you must become superuser. MULTI-VOLUME ARCHIVE: (From: jr@connie.de.convex.com (Joachim Riedel)) I'm trying to archive a 5 mb file (which is itself a compressed cpio file) from hard disk onto floppy disk (fva1). I've tried cpio and tar and even pax directly but cannot get past one volume. Use the raw device (i.e. /dev/rfva1 ) instead of the device fva1. SCSI MKFS NOTES: Answer From: stephen@mwc.com (Stephen Davis) I am trying to add a second scsi drive to my system. mkfs will not accept a proto file. What do I do? You do not badscan a SCSI drive. Instead of giving mkfs a proto file, you give it the total number of blocks in the partition. The number of blocks is listed in the partition table under f-disk. DOS TO COHERENT: Q: The question is, is it possible to read DOS-format 360KB-diskettes? A: yes it is :-) From: lvds@tfpbbs.uucp (Laurent Cas) Here is the device type reference table: Device name Sectors/track Heads Sectors Bytes Format /dev/f9a0 9 2 720 360 KB 5.25" /dev/fqa0 9 2 1440 720 KB 3.5" /dev/fha0 15 2 2400 1.2 MB 5.25" /dev/fva0 18 2 2880 1.44 MB 3.5" If your 360KB drive is 'A:' (MSDOS reference) you can do dos t /dev/f9a0 to list your disk, or if your 360KB is 'B:' you will have to do dos t /dev/f9a1 drive A is number 0 and drive B is number 1 ; same for partitions on your hard disk... Cheers, Laurent. UUINSTALL BUG HELP: (From norm@mwc.com) Using Coherent 3.2, I run UUINSTALL, upon exiting, I am back at my prompt, but, the system hangs. the only way to restart via a reboot. Is this problem specific to 3.2 or is it something I have possibly done? This is a bug in the 3.2.0 release of uuinstall. Occasionally, upon exiting, it leaves your terminal in "raw" mode. The Errata sheet which is included with 3.2 releases mentions this, as far as I know. To fix your terminal after exiting uuinstall, enter the following (note that is the control key plus the letter J): stty sane XWINDOWS: (From doug@mwc:) From time to time, we get people asking about X windows on Coherent. Many new entrants into the field of UNIX have probably heard of the popular UNIX graphics interface called X-WINDOWS. X-WINDOWS was developed by MIT. To the best of our knowledge they still hold the rights to the source code and it is in the public domain. To the best of our knowledge, the source code takes up 110mb of disk space! The binaries, an additional 12 - 20mb's of disk space. It requires TCP or Streams support, neither of which is in COHERENT. X-windows it seems, has become somewhat of a popular GUI for UNIX in a very short time. Various hardware firms have developed and are marketing X-workstations, servers and cards. On page 14 of the November 1991 issue of UNIX REVIEW, is an ad for X11 Release 5 for System V/386. The price advertised is $495 with printed manuals, $395 without. So, X is not cheap via the commercial route. Given COHERENT 3.2's small model compiler, it is obviously impossible at this time for COHERENT to even compile the code, let alone run it. Tar Help: The Coherent version of tar has been known to create problems for users. It is believed that the latest version of tar has alleviated most of these problems. Some of the original problems include inability to read a tar archive to tar creating recursive inode/file loops that can only be removed by "clri". The more recent Coherent releases also includes ustar, which appears to be much more robust. It has been suggested to use the ustar command instead of the Coherent native tar command in most cases. Setting Boot Partition: DOS or Coherent? Occasionally, a user may want to boot to Coherent for the most part, rather than come up in DOS by default. You can leave the DOS partition in tact, and switch between the preferred operating systems on as "as needed" basis. To do this, simply use the fdisk program in either operating system and make the partition active for the operating system that resides there. Reboot the system, (AMI Bios system owners require a hard reset) and the system will now boot to the partition made active with fdisk. For example, if you wish to boot DOS by default, make the first partition active. If you want to boot Coherent by default, make the partition active that Coherent resides on. DISCLAIMER: ANY REFERENCE TO THIS ARTICLE, IN ANY FORM, IS PURELY AT YOUR OWN RISK! All opinions, tips, and instructions in this article are those of the contributors, and not of any company associated with the individual contributor, or any company mentioned in this article. The information contained within is not guaranteed to be free of errors in any way. The intention of this note is only to inform curious usenet readers about some aspects of the operating system of Coherent, and those companies mentioned are encouraged to add corrections, additions, or suggest deletions to this note to as per their policy or willingness to provide positive criticism. TRADEMARKS Unix is the trademark of AT&T / Unix System Laboratories, Inc. Coherent is the trademark of the Mark Williams Company. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike@array.com So much fun, so little time to enjoy it.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett) Date: 23 Jan 93 02:03:29 GMT Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent Subject: Coherent FAQ, Technical Info for Version 4.X T E C H N I C A L T I P S F O R C O H E R E N T 4.X Technical Tips FAQ for Rev 4.X of Coherent FAQ Rev 2.3 Help With Installation: 4.0 Binary compatability with other software: Compiling programs: Help with serial ports and terminals: Creating a Bootable Floppy for Emergency Use: Help With Installation: From: Bob Hemedinger ----------------------- 1) I'm updating from version 3.x to 4.x and am being asked for a serial number from a registration card. I don't have one. - updating users do not need new serial numbers. Use the number supplied with your 3.x version. If you don't know what it is, read the file /etc/serialno. 2) I'm seeing various characters in the upper right hand corner of my screen when Coherent boots. - These are used by MWC for debugging some installation problems. If installation fails to boot, the last character(s) displayed in the corner of the screen will give a significant clue as to where the failure occurred. 3) I get a core dump during the installation. The last digits of the eip register are 2EF. - Call MWC for a new set of installation diskettes. 4) I see a prepare_gift() message when Coherent boots. - The tertiary boot program, /tboot, is attempting to read your CMOS to get your hard drive parameters and other information. This process met with an unexpected error, usually related to the initialization of cache memory. If Coherent continues to boot and run, ignore the message. If the boot fails, try this: - hit when prompted by tboot to abort the boot process. Type 'info' at the first '?' prompt. Ignore the returned data. At the next '?' prompt, type 'update' or 'begin' if updating or installing, or enter the name of the kernel to boot. Follow this procedure exactly. Do NOT try the 'info' command more than once. 5) When booting the installation, I come to a # prompt with a message displayed that I didn't boot properly and need to reboot. - tboot failed to pass what you typed at the '?' prompt to the installation program. A prepare_gift() message was probably displayed before this, sometimes too quickly to be seen unless one is looking for it specifically. One can either reboot and use the procedure from item #4 (above), or type 'build' at the # prompt to install, or type 'build -u' at the # prompt to update from 3.x. 6) During boot, I see a message about not being able to brelease a modified buffer. - In most cases, Coherent will continue to boot normally. In some, the message will scroll endlessly. This is an indication of an incompatible bios and is a very rare case. The Epson bios set has sometimes produced this problem. If at all possible, update the bios chips in the computer. Phoenix is the bios chipset MWC recommends. 7) After installing disk #1, I reboot Coherent from the hard drive, but am never prompted to enter a diskette -or-, I reboot Coherent from the hard drive, and the system hangs with a Coherent banner message on the screen. - Thou hast most likely chosen to use either virtual consoles, or no virtual consoles but did select a loadable keyboard table. Coherent is hanging at the point where keyboard initialization takes place, indicating that the keyboard does not properly support IBM scan code 3. This is a different keyboard mode than DOS uses, and probably a good 10% of keyboards of Asian origin will have problems with this. Reinstallation without virtual consoles nor loadable keyboard tables should resolve this. 8) All diskettes install without a hitch, but after rebooting, fsck finds all sorts of DUP blocks and bad i-nodes. - This is rare, but is usually the result of installing onto a large partition. This is possibly related to sector translation firmware and/or the manner in which the firmware deals with bad blocks... we don't know yet. Break the large partition into smaller partitions and try installation again. If this is an ESDI drive, and the controller is doing sector translation, try switching it to native mode. 4.0 Binary compatability with other software: -------------------------------------------- Coherent 4.x compiles and runs COFF executables. Third party COFF software will most likely run if the following conditions are true: - does NOT use shared memory nor shared libraries. We plan to implement these in the next release of Coherent. Coherent 4.0 shared memory is not System V compliant. - does NOT rely on sockets nor streams. Again, we plan to have have at least one of these in the next release. - does NOT use graphics. Coherent 4.0 is strictly a text-based system. Again, we plan to have some form of graphics support in the future. Some examples of 3rd party software running under Coherent 4.x: ACUCOBOL Xtree BASIS International BBX/Progression 3 (BASIC) FilePro - For more info, please contact MWC, or email sales@mwc.com. Compiling programs: ------------------- 1) The compiler is complaining about not enough memory. - You may have a significant amount of memory, say 2 or 4 Megabytes, but one must also account for other running processes. The compiler by default tries to do all of its work in core (memory). If it aborts due to not enough memory, then add a -T0 to your cc command line. This will force the compiler to use temporary files on the hard drive, rather than in core. 2) I'm trying to port software from a bbs or the net. Is Coherent closer to System V or BSD? - You should select System V wherever possible. We tend to avoid BSDisms. 3) When compiling a package, the linker complains that getwd() doesn't exist. This worked under 3.x. What happened? - With Coherent 4.0, we have gone to getcwd() in place of getwd(). We have supplied _getwd() for people that need getwd(), but we are planning on dropping this in the future. Help with serial ports and terminals: ------------------------------------- d10590@tanus.oz.au (Robert Chalmers) Coherent V4.0/4.01. Thanks, Robert! If you follow the installation instructions, and choose their defaults, you will end up with a ttys file very similar to the following. 0lPcom1l <--| 0lPcom2l | -- The four standard COM1, COM2, 0lPcom3l | COM3 & COM4 ports. NOT CONFIGURED. 0lPcom4l <--| See the notes below for configuration. 1lPmono0 <--| 1lPmono1 | -- The terminal virtual consoles. 1lPmono2 | These REPLACE the V3.x's 1Pconsole 1lPmono3 <--| entry in that versions ttys file. You dont have to touch these. For example, on my system I have the following hardware. One standard HDD/FDD Controller (IDE) with COM1, COM2 and LPT1 on board, and enabled. These live at 3F8 - IRQ4, and 2F8 - IRQ3. LPT1 uses 378 and IRQ7. One standard Taiwan Multi I/O card with 2 COM ports, one printer port, and one game port. This card can be configured as COM1/2 or COM3/4, and LPT1 or LPT2. I have the jumpers set for the following. COM3 at 3E8 - IRQ4 and COM4 at 2E8 - IRQ3, with the second printer, LPT2 at 278 - IRQ5. Now, setting them up, as applied to this type of 2 board setup. If you are not sure if your installation configured the ports correctly, then follow the instructions in the Release Notes and Installation Guide under 'Asy' exactly as they appear, regarding the making of the devices. Dont change anything. yet. Now, the thing to note is the rule on IRQs and Polling. If you are using COM2 as your modem port, (seems to be the most used option), and COM1 as a terminal connection, and both are using IRQs, then the other two must be Polled. COM3 and COM4 must be Polled. Observe my settings listed, 0lPcom1l <--- Serial terminal on COM1. IRQ4 1rLcom2r <--- Modem, incoming, on COM2. IRQ3 0lLcom2l <--- Modem, outgoing (the same modem) on COM2. IRQ3 0lPcom3pl <--- Serial terminal on COM3. Polled 0lPcom4pl <--- Serial terminal on COM4. Polled 1lPmono0 <-| 1lPmono1 | 1lPmono2 | --virtual screens. 1lPmono3 <-| The Serial terminals are shown as 'disabled' in the above listing, but when they are connected, you simply type 'enable com3pl' and presto!, you get a login prompt on that terminal. In SUMMARY: Install with all defaults. Run the three configuration commands in the Asy entry. The asyxxx entries in your /dev directory are the prototypes for the comxx devices, so you can ignore them for the purposes of this. Decide which lines you will use, and check your IRQ/Poll combination. Check your physical wiring. For terminals, you only need three wires: D25 connectors. TXD to RXD, RXD to TXD, Common Ground. 2 --> 3 3 <-- 2 7 <-> 7 D9 connector. TXD to RXD, RXD to TXD, Common Ground. 2 --> 3 3 <-- 2 5 <-> 5 In the above setting, to call out on the modem, you MUST type 'disable com2r' before you can call out on com2l. When you are finished, type 'enable com2r' to put your modem back on line. Other things of note: Old Xt's with a com port and any version of TELIX/PROCOMM/etc etc make good cheap terminals, as do old terminals that businesses throw away as obsolete. Windows 3.1's Terminal will emulate a vt100. If you have a second PC connected to a Coherent serial port, its 'almost!' like having Xterm running Coherent in a Term window. You can even cut and paste between Word for Windows etc and vi. So who needs X I ask? Creating a Bootable Floppy for Emergency Use: --------------------------------------------- Forwarded here by Robert Chalmers, work done by Udo and Vlad | Udo and Vlad have done a MARVELOUS job here. -- Robert Chalmers | [Two spaces have been added to the start of each line to avoid mailer and nroff problems... --Mike] -------------------------Cut Here------------------------------- # shell script to create a bootable floppy disk # Works with COHERENT 3.x and COHERENT 4.0. # Written by Udo Munk (udo@umunk.GUN.de) # with help from Vladimir Smelyansky (vlad@mwc.com) clear if [ $USER != root ] then echo "This program must be run as user root!" exit fi echo "This programm creates a bootable floppy disk for COHERENT." echo "Because booting the PC hardware only works with floppy drive A" echo "I want to know the size of your A device first." echo while true do echo -n "Is your A devive a 5,25 read answer if [ $answer = y -o $answer = n ] then break else echo "answer with y or n please!" echo fi done if [ $answer = y ] then echo "Fine, let us create a 5,25 dev=/dev/fha0 devsize="5,25 devblocks=2400 boot=/conf/boot.fha else echo "Fine, let us create a 3,5 dev=/dev/fva0 devsize="3,5 devblocks=2880 boot=/conf/boot.fva fi echo echo "Now please put a" $devsize "floppy disk into your drive A". echo "WARNING: ALL DATA ON THIS FLOPPY DISK WILL BE DESTROYED!" echo echo -n "Type y if you want to continue, any other to abort: " read answer if [ $answer != y ] then exit fi clear echo "Step 1: formating floppy disk..." /etc/fdformat $dev echo "Step 2: building the bad block list..." /etc/badscan -o bootdisk $dev $devblocks echo "Step 3: building a filesystem..." /etc/mkfs $dev bootdisk rm bootdisk echo "Step 4: copy the bootstrap onto the floppy disk..." cp $boot $dev /etc/mount $dev /mnt if [ -f /tboot ] then cp /tboot /mnt fi cp /dpb /mnt echo "Step 5: copy the kernel and patch it..." cp /coherent /mnt ln /mnt/coherent /mnt/autoboot if [ -f /tboot ] # we are running Coherent 4.x then if [ $dev = /dev/fha0 ] # drive A is 5,25" then /conf/patch /mnt/coherent rootdev=makedev14) /conf/patch /mnt/coherent pipedev=makedev14) else # drive A is 3,5" /conf/patch /mnt/coherent rootdev=makedev15) /conf/patch /mnt/coherent pipedev=makedev15) fi else # we are running Cohherent 3.x if [ $dev = /dev/fha0 ] # drive A is 5,25" then /conf/patch /mnt/coherent rootdev_=makedev14) /conf/patch /mnt/coherent pipedev_=makedev14) else # drive A is 3,5" /conf/patch /mnt/coherent rootdev_=makedev15) /conf/patch /mnt/coherent pipedev_=makedev15) fi fi echo "Step 6: copy all neccesary files to the floppy disk..." mkdir /mnt/mnt mkdir /mnt/tmp cpdir /dev /mnt/dev cpdir /drv /mnt/drv mkdir /mnt/conf cpdir /conf/kbd /mnt/conf/kbd mkdir /mnt/bin cp /bin/bad /mnt/bin cp /bin/check /mnt/bin cp /bin/chgrp /mnt/bin cp /bin/chmod /mnt/bin cp /bin/chown /mnt/bin cp /bin/cmp /mnt/bin cp /bin/cp /mnt/bin cp /bin/cpdir /mnt/bin cp /bin/date /mnt/bin cp /bin/db /mnt/bin cp /bin/dcheck /mnt/bin cp /bin/df /mnt/bin cp /bin/find /mnt/bin cp /bin/grep /mnt/bin cp /bin/icheck /mnt/bin cp /bin/ln /mnt/bin cp /bin/ls /mnt/bin cp /bin/lc /mnt/bin cp /bin/mkdir /mnt/bin cp /bin/mv /mnt/bin cp /bin/ncheck /mnt/bin cp /bin/ps /mnt/bin cp /bin/pwd /mnt/bin cp /bin/rm /mnt/bin cp /bin/rmdir /mnt/bin cp /bin/scat /mnt/bin cp /bin/sh /mnt/bin cp /bin/stty /mnt/bin cp /bin/sync /mnt/bin mkdir /mnt/usr mkdir /mnt/usr/tmp mkdir /mnt/usr/bin cp /usr/bin/vi /mnt/usr/bin cp /usr/bin/me /mnt/usr/bin cp /usr/bin/more /mnt/usr/bin if [ -d /usr/lib/terminfo ] then mkdir /mnt/usr/lib mkdir /mnt/usr/lib/terminfo mkdir /mnt/usr/lib/terminfo/a cp /usr/lib/terminfo/a/ansipc /mnt/usr/lib/terminfo/a fi mkdir /mnt/etc cp /etc/.profile /mnt/etc cp /etc/ATclock /mnt/etc cp /etc/badscan /mnt/etc cp /etc/clri /mnt/etc if [ -f /etc/drvld ] then cp /etc/drvld /mnt/etc fi cp /etc/drvld.all /mnt/etc cp /etc/fdisk /mnt/etc cp /etc/fsck /mnt/etc cp /etc/init /mnt/etc cp /etc/mkfs /mnt/etc cp /etc/mount /mnt/etc cp /etc/reboot /mnt/etc cp /etc/umount /mnt/etc cp /etc/serialno /mnt/etc cp /etc/timezone /mnt/etc cp /etc/termcap /mnt/etc echo "Step 7: create lost+found with enough empty directory slots..." mkdir /mnt/lost+found for I in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 do for J in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 do touch /mnt/lost+found/$I$J done done rm /mnt/lost+found/* echo "Step 8: create some files, so that boot ends in single user mode..." cat >/mnt/etc/brc </dev/null /etc/drvld.all exit 1 ! >/mnt/etc/checklist >/mnt/etc/mount.all echo "Last step: check the filesystem of the created floppy disk:" /etc/umount $dev /etc/fsck $dev echo "Fine, floppy disk ready, store it at a cold and dry place but" echo "where you can remeber in case of an emergency :-)" -------------------------End Here------------------------------- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike@array.com So much fun, so little time to enjoy it.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------