CBBS(R) 4.0.3b 06/23/91 20:03:11 Y/N: want CBBS "1st time user" info?^U ?^U ?^U ?n;ward;christensen;odraw;;fullc;piss Logging name to disk... You are caller 222214; next msg =44887; 384 active msgs. Prev. call 06/19/91 @ 23:15, next msg was 44866 Recording logon for next time... Use FULL? to check assignments ?^U ?xxxxx "Mine" command checking for msgs TO you, ^K >Function:?dir c:log;dir c:killed;dir summary;type-20 log,ward c;or;*;short LOG. 7 KILLED. 19 SUMMARY. 26 /23/91,20:03:15,222214,2,WARD CHRISTENSEN,, 44866 06/19/91 WARD CHRISTENSEN => BILL WOLFF: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44867 06/19/91 WARD CHRISTENSEN => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "R/ALWAYS ON VS POWER UP/DOWtype-30 log,ward c;or;*;short 06/19/91,23:15:16,222144,2,WARD CHRISTENSEN,, E#44866, E#44867,11 06/19/91,23:43:10,222145,1,ROY LIPSCOMB,,1 06/20/91,00:20:57,222146,2,CHARLIE KESTNER,,4 06/20/91,01:58:53,222147,2,CLIFF SHARP,, E#44868,8 06/20/91,02:15:41,222148,1,HARVEY BURR,,2 06/20/91,04:21:34,222149,2,JERRY OLSEN,, E#44869, E#44870, E#44871,26 06/20/91,05:30:20,222150,2,JOE JESSON,,6 06/20/91,07:46:56,222151,2,BOB JOHNSTON,,2 06/20/91,08:02:07,222152,2,JAMES SCHMIDT,,2 06/20/91,08:24:04,222153,2,BILL WOLFF,, E#44872, E#44873, E#44874, E#44875, E#44876,67 06/20/91,10:41:32,222154,2,JACK PAYTON,oakbrook il,5 06/20/91,11:44:23,222155,2,ALEX ZELL,, 06/20/91,16:31:03,222156,1,MICHAEL SHARTIAG,,7 06/20/91,18:37:46,222157,1,RICHARD GOZDAL,, E#44877,12 06/20/91,19:44:44,222158,1,KEVIN CLARK,, >Help: SEND,16 06/20/91,20:55:57,222159,2,KEN COCHRAN,Alexander City/ Alabama,6 06/20/91,21:19:42,222160,2,MICHAEL SHARTIAG,, E#44878,10 06/20/91,21:49:34,222161,2,DAVID ELSTEROTH,KENNER/ LA,4 06/20/91,21:52:12,222162,2,DAVID ELSTEROTH,,8 06/20/91,23:01:55,222163,2,SHADLEY THOMAS,Chicago Illinois, 06/20/91,23:28:07,222164,2,CURT ROSTENBACH,,7 06/21/91,05:26:49,222165,2,PETE JONES,,2 06/21/91,08:10:08,222166,2,BILL WOLFF,,5 06/21/91,09:49:39,222167,9,ERIC BOHLMAN,, E#44879,10 06/21/91,11:17:42,222168,2,JACK HOMA,,2 06/21/91,11:40:39,222169,1,LINDY SLOAN,hamilton,3 06/21/91,12:06:51,222170,2,BILL WOLFF,, E#44880,8 06/21/91,12:21:01,222171,2,LARRY HITZ,,3 06/21/91,13:17:04,222172,2,DENNIS STAHL,,8 06/21/91,13:35:36,222173,1,DAVID JOHNSON,,14 06/21/91,14:15:46,222174,2,ROBERT LUND,,1 06/21/91,14:37:30,222175,1,JERRY HASLETT,, 06/21/91,15:07:25,222176,2,JAMES SCHMIDT,, E#44881,3 06/21/91,15:13:31,222177,9,BEN TEIFELD,,4 06/21/91,15:37:27,222178,1,LINDY SLOAN,, 06/21/91,16:02:17,222179,2,DANNY VAISRUB,,1 06/21/91,16:17:40,222180,2,TONY ANTONUCCI,, E#44882,3 06/21/91,16:22:11,222181,1,RICHARD GOZDAL,,1 06/21/91,16:24:49,222182,2,DON PIVEN,,3 06/21/91,17:05:03,222183,2,BILL WOLFF,,1 06/21/91,19:39:46,222184,3,JIM COLLING,,1 06/21/91,20:24:41,222185,2,PEAK QUINTERO,,2 06/21/91,21:23:47,222186,2,RENE RIVERA,Chicago/ IL,3 06/21/91,22:47:46,222187,2,MICHAEL SHARTIAG,,2 06/21/91,23:00:46,222188,1,ROY LIPSCOMB,,3 06/22/91,00:13:32,222189,2,CHARLIE KESTNER,, E#44883,5 06/22/91,01:14:28,222190,2,BEN TEIFELD,,0 06/22/91,02:15:02,222191,2,SEAN PICUR,,2 06/22/91,04:47:35,222192,2,JERRY OLSEN,, E#44884, E#44885,22 06/22/91,09:12:25,222193,9,ERIC BOHLMAN,,1 06/22/91,09:34:06,222194,3,MURRAY ARNOW,,10 06/22/91,11:51:32,222195,1,PETER FLIEGEL,,4 06/22/91,15:26:33,222196,2,JEFF GORDON,CHICAGO, 06/22/91,16:20:13,222197,1,TOM KIMES,,3 06/22/91,19:58:28,222198,2,JEFF YEKER,Wheeling, 06/22/91,20:06:27,222199,2,JEFF YEKER,, >Help: L, 06/22/91,21:20:02,222200,3,MAX KOHN,,17 06/22/91,21:59:33,222201,1,DAVID JOHNSON,,2 06/22/91,22:04:51,222202,9,DAVID GIBBS,, 06/22/91,23:51:29,222203,2,CHARLIE KESTNER,,2 06/23/91,08:34:55,222204,1,PETER FLIEGEL,,1 06/23/91,08:57:01,222205,1,ANDY SHAPIRO,, E#44886,22 06/23/91,12:14:14,222206,2,JOHN KESLING,,6 06/23/91,15:59:39,222207,2,LARRY HITZ,,1 06/23/91,16:03:30,222208,2,MICHAEL SHARTIAG,,2 06/23/91,16:38:37,222209,2,BOB HAGER,,1 ]BOB HAGER, 06/23/91,18:09:35,222210,2,JIM WELLS,lake villa/ ill,3 06/23/91,18:49:53,222211,1,JUAN RUBIO,chicago / il,2 06/23/91,19:02:44,222212,1,BILL WOLFF,,3 06/23/91,19:09:52,222213,2,DON PIVEN,,2 06/23/91,20:03:15,222214,2,WARD CHRISTENSEN,, 44866 06/19/91 WARD CHRISTENSEN => BILL WOLFF: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44867 06/19/91 WARD CHRISTENSEN => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "R/ALWAYS ON VS POWER UP/DOWN" 44868 06/20/91 CLIFF SHARP => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44869 06/20/91 JERRY OLSEN => RICHARD GOZDAL: "R/SHAREWARE SURVEY" 44870 06/20/91 JERRY OLSEN => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "R/FAT REBUILDING" 44871 06/20/91 JERRY OLSEN => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "POWER ON/OFF" 44872 06/20/91 BILL WOLFF => KEVIN CLARK: "R/DEC RAINBOW 100 PC" 44873 06/20/91 BILL WOLFF => KEVIN CLARK: "R/LOOKING FOR DEC SOFTWARE" 44874 06/20/91 BILL WOLFF => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "R/ALWAYS ON VS POWER UP/DOWN" 44875 06/20/91 BILL WOLFF => WARD CHRISTENSEN: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44876 06/20/91 BILL WOLFF => CLIFF SHARP: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44877 06/20/91 RICHARD GOZDAL => JERRY OLSEN: "R/SHAREWARE SURVEY" 44878 06/20/91 MICHAEL SHARTIAG => ALL: "XEROX #2700/4050 LASER PTR" 44879 06/21/91 ERIC BOHLMAN => BILL WOLFF: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44880 06/21/91 BILL WOLFF => ERIC BOHLMAN: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44881 06/21/91 JAMES SCHMIDT => ALL: "DELL COMPUTER EXPERIENCES" 44882 06/21/91 TONY ANTONUCCI => WARD CHRISTENSEN: "LANTASTIC 4.0" 44883X 06/22/91 CHARLIE KESTNER => MICHAEL SHARTIAG: "CAN'T HELP" 44884 06/22/91 JERRY OLSEN => BILL WOLFF: "R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING" 44885 06/22/91 JERRY OLSEN => RICHARD GOZDAL: "R/SHAREWARE SURVEY" 44886 06/23/91 ANDY SHAPIRO => WARD/ALL: "/OFF" ---- End of summary ---- Retrieving flagged msgs: C skips, K aborts. Msg 44866 is 21 line(s) on 06/19/91 from WARD CHRISTENSEN to BILL WOLFF re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING The MS-DOS system is based upon a cluster size - may be as little as 512 bytes, but is typically 2K or 4K for hard disks - 4K if the disk is below 16M (because it uses 12-bit cluster pointers in the FAT), or 2K over 16M (because it uses 16-bit cluster pointers in the FAT). The FAT is a table right after the boot sector, which, per above, contains either 12-bit or 16-bit pointers to the CLUSTER. The active sectors are determined by the length field within the directory. If a file is 1050 bytes long, that sez it occupies 2.x sectors, but all in one cluster. The valid FAT pointers are: "nn" to point to the next cluster, F7FF to indicate a bad cluster (don't allocate to it), 0000 for an open cluster (can allocate a file there), or FFFF for the end of a chain. When you erase a file, the first byte of the filename gets changed to an E5 in the directory, but everything else stays intact - i.e. the cluster pointer, and file length. However, the FAT is ZEROED for all clusters that that file occupied, making it very difficult to piece the file together if it is more than one cluster long. (you have the first cluster from the erased directory entry, but you have to guess at the rest). Some people "compress" their disks so that clusters will be contiguous in case they need to un-erase. Msg 44867 is 20 line(s) on 06/19/91 from WARD CHRISTENSEN to MICHAEL SHARTIAG re: R/ALWAYS ON VS POWER UP/DOWN I'd LOVE to become aware of some location that is installing 100+ PCs, and arbitrarily (flip of the coin, or odd/even letters in first+last name, etc) to determine who leaves the machine on, and who turns 'em off. My thoughts: - electronics age faster from power on/off cycles; - drives have a finite # of power on/off cycles, as well as a finite # of power-on hours. Some say that the grease in the bearings tends to work its way out from power-on/off cycles, while it doesn't happen as fast if the drive is left on. - At work the Air Condx turns off at 6:00, and it is known to get up to 95 degrees on the weekend. I INSIST on all machines being powered off, both to not ADD to the heat for the few that are in working, but also to prevent premature failures due to the excessive temperature. I also am concerned about "energy wasting" - by leaving machines on, SO I power off all my machines overnight. I USED to leave my PC on Friday nights, knowing I'd be using it Sat AM, but now I turn it off all the time. Leave it on if you're going to use it again the same day, otherwise shut it off - that'd be my advice - saves our energy resources. Then again someone could do a rebuttal "but think of all the energy you'd waste making new components if they fail prematurely!". Msg 44868 is 15 line(s) on 06/20/91 from CLIFF SHARP to MICHAEL SHARTIAG re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING As Ward said, you have one heckuva hacking job ahead if you choose to go ahead with this. But you mentioned changing controllers; I have personally never ever been able to read a disk after changing to a different controller, except when I went from a WD1002 to a WD1003. I have a dumpy little program (in progress) that at present will read whatever it finds in the position the partition table should be in, and compare that data to the CMOS settings, etc. and display what the part table says the drive is set up for. If you'd like a copy to verify that the machine is indeed reading your disk right, leave a message and we'll work out details of transfer. I would say the best possibility of recovery and the easiest, would be to get another WD1003 and use it to back up the drive, then install the new controller, LL format, FDISK and HL format, and reinstall all the stuff. Might be safest, too. I have a controller you can borrow if you like (converted to IDE here). Msg 44869 is 04 line(s) on 06/20/91 from JERRY OLSEN to RICHARD GOZDAL re: R/SHAREWARE SURVEY Will try to get out a copy in time for Thursday's mail pick-up, but will see....If so, I'd need it back almost immediately as I must put the article together next week. If you have fax capability, that would REALLY improve chances your comments would influence the article. Msg 44870 is 15 line(s) on 06/20/91 from JERRY OLSEN to MICHAEL SHARTIAG re: R/FAT REBUILDING Looks like you've already received most of the nitty-gritty (and ugly!) details. I might add, though, that if some of the data are REALLY valuable you could consider some of the commercial services which specialize in exactly this sort of thing. Since they've put together the tools, it might expedite things and (if you're charging for your work on resurrecting files) might be more economical from the client's perspective. Though it's not a help for you now, the recent msg exchanges have suggested a spin-off of an unreleased program which saves (and encrypts) all FAT, boot-sector, root DIR and (possible) reserved sectors to a floppy, then *intentionally* "corrupts" the HD as a disk lock-out method. The spin-off idea would be simply to save an UNencrypted image of those areas. Running this regularly (maybe as part of AUTOEXEC.BAT) on a client's machine might be a good idea for consultants--so you'd have at least a reasonably current copy of FATs, etc., if a crisis like the one you've described hits. (Make that WHEN it hits!) Msg 44871 is 11 line(s) on 06/20/91 from JERRY OLSEN to MICHAEL SHARTIAG re: POWER ON/OFF Yep, some studies have been done, but none to my knowledge under a rigid set of conditions. Ward has outlined some of the factors which certainly are worth considering....From what I've come across, the jury seems to still be out on the question. My own rule of thumb is to turn off any inactive machines if I'm leaving the premises for an extended period of time. On the other hand, one machine stays fully on at all times, a second stays on EXCEPT for the monitor at all times....As a very Unscientific observation, I have two largely identical machines of the same (old!) vintage, one of which is the "always" on machine, the other is generally on very briefly, then turned off for the day. I've been able to discern absolutely no difference in long-term wear and tear between them. Msg 44872 is 07 line(s) on 06/20/91 from BILL WOLFF to KEVIN CLARK re: R/DEC RAINBOW 100 PC Sorry but I gave it away for FREE. If you had spoken up sooner we could have arranged something. I gave it to Jerry Olsen. I still have the manual and Jerry or anybody else can have it if they replace it with the MS-DOS version of Lotus (manual). Sometimes I or someone else has questions about Lotus which I then need a manual to sort things out. If you really need Lotus for the Rainbow, I suggest you talk to Jerry which he then gave it away to someone else. Sorry!?! Msg 44873 is 16 line(s) on 06/20/91 from BILL WOLFF to KEVIN CLARK re: R/LOOKING FOR DEC SOFTWARE Hi Kevin! I sort of answered your question already on "The Round Table" but I briefly add some here. I never even seen a real Rainbow computer. I was just in a used computer store in Silicon Valley (the best place to get old computer stuff cheap and by the truck load) and they had some Rainbow software unopened for a few dollars each. I knew that it would be risky, but I decided this maybe a chance in a lifetime to get cheap software for either CP/M or MS-DOS operating systems. It turns out that it doesn't work on either, but just on Rainbow computers. I was going to hack at it, but once I learned what was going to be involved, I decided that my time was worth more then the benefits. So I gave it all away. What about you? Well I believe there must be a Rainbow Users group out there somewhere. If Timex computers still has a users group, hey, why not? Now all you have to do is find it. Leaving messages on BBS networks is a good start. Keep it up and I hope you well. Msg 44874 is 30 line(s) on 06/20/91 from BILL WOLFF to MICHAEL SHARTIAG re: R/ALWAYS ON VS POWER UP/DOWN I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said. Though I do have lots of experience with electronics in general. We know that turning on and off is bad for electronics. Those spikes causes junctions to go and electrolitic capacitors to short (or open after time). We also know that electrons are really eating away small parts of the curcuits every second. Though design also plays a big part. When I worked in R&D, we could tell you when a certain transistor would fail within a few hours, if we knew the temperature and how long it was on. You could build curcuits to withstand the spikes of turning off and on for much longer periods of time and higher temperatures. This is in fact what R&D people try to do. If the people who designed your computer was looking for making it cheaper than there were shortcuts taken very likely. I have seen the same models of equipment act differently. Some can take being turned on and off (for service repair I had to do this) without problems or I seen some blow something almost very time till you replace all the weak links and then everything was fine again. I still have lots of very old electronics and I am very surprised that most of it still works. A light bulb is a good example of some electronics. It will very likely go bad during the turn on proceedure (spikes). It will fail though too, if you leave it on enough. I do want to add this theory of mine though. Things like laptops which is low power and almost no heat may not make a bit of difference whether they are on or off. Some electronics you see also goes bad from time (age) alone. Ward can also feel better if someone leaves a small laptop on for energy savings. Since the cost is very low to begin with. For example, mine draws 23 watts max and won't likely place a dent in energy savings. The dumb meter outside your house draws 3 watts I believe of it's own power. Msg 44875 is 07 line(s) on 06/20/91 from BILL WOLFF to WARD CHRISTENSEN re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING Boy that was sure valuable information. Does CP/M also use CLUSTERS as well? Does it follow the same type of format? I know on my different CP/M computers some logs in either 1K, 2K or even 4K segments. Though the sector sizes don't follow this pattern I don't believe. Would this then be the CLUSTERS? Since I use 720K floppies on my MS-DOS. Is this say 512K CLUSTER size? Msg 44876 is 03 line(s) on 06/20/91 from BILL WOLFF to CLIFF SHARP re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING I've changed controllers from WD1770 to WD1772 all the time without any problems at all and all the better. Though these are floppy controller chips. That might make the difference, huh? Msg 44877 is 19 line(s) on 06/20/91 from RICHARD GOZDAL to JERRY OLSEN re: R/SHAREWARE SURVEY Won't make a mail pickup and send-out quickly. One thing for sure about S/W is: Make sure all international stuff is STATED like only payment in US funds DRAWN on a US bank! I have noticed that most want more info on what I have so including something about other pgms IS important in the docs. Only received ONE S/W fee, the rest were orders for the registered version which had a printout option and only screen output was on the S/W version. The right distributors is also important. Distributors tricke (trickle) in after a while and they want to handle it. I only advertised for 2 issues in Computer shopper long ago and have had others do the distributing. Received a request from Australia the other week from a guy who got hold of the FIRST dinky version I had out (heck 2- 2 1/2 years ago) and wanted to know about V2 where it is V3.2 now (should be V4 by now). Also state the price for a specific version like 3.X and other upgrades are more. People get these things years later and expect the price to be the same and it must if it is in writing. Msg 44878 is 08 line(s) on 06/20/91 from MICHAEL SHARTIAG to ALL re: XEROX #2700/4050 LASER PTR After some digging, the XP12E somwhow becomes a Xerox 2700 laser printer. This was supposedly a supported printer under WIndows 2.0 & 2.1 There are also alledgedly Wordperfect compatible fonts on disk for this printer. The 4050 desktop unit has an emulation mode that makes it a 2700 printer. Now for the revised questions: Does anyone have or know where I can get these fonts or any other fonts for the 2700? Does anyone have access to the documentation for the 2700? Msg 44879 is 06 line(s) on 06/21/91 from ERIC BOHLMAN to BILL WOLFF re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING CP/M stores all of its allocation information in the directory entries themselves. Each entry contains an array of 16 cluster numbers. If a file uses more than 16 clusters, it gets a second directory entry (I can't remember if theres's a "second entry" flag or if this is just determined by position. The number of sectors per cluster is determined at system generation time. Msg 44880 is 02 line(s) on 06/21/91 from BILL WOLFF to ERIC BOHLMAN re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING Wow! I had no idea that CP/M doesn't have a separate FAT. Boy want a learning curse this is. Thanks. Msg 44881 is 07 line(s) on 06/21/91 from JAMES SCHMIDT to ALL re: DELL COMPUTER EXPERIENCES I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has experience with DELL computers in general and specifically the 325P. A friend of mine is considering purchasing one and would be interested in any information, both pros and cons, relating to this line of equipment. Thanks in advance, James Schmidt Msg 44882 is 05 line(s) on 06/21/91 from TONY ANTONUCCI to WARD CHRISTENSEN re: LANTASTIC 4.0 I just heard that the free upgrade to LANtastic 4.0 WILL be for those who purchased it after May 1st.....lucky you. I bought mine in April, but I will be getting another AE2 card in the near future, so I will get it with that.....ooooppps I would not get the server software. I'll have to call'em. No msg 44883 Msg 44884 is 14 line(s) on 06/22/91 from JERRY OLSEN to BILL WOLFF re: R/FAT TABLES /REBUILDING Eric provided most of the info re CP/M DIR entries. An additional comment or two....The size of a particular cluster is stored in a system parameter block (that's my term--it was something similar) along with a quite a bit of additional (cryptic!) info. The data in the parm block was machine- specific, thus having a lot to do with a major flaw in CP/M--lack of a standard for disk formats....The 32-byte DIR entry contained one byte which revealed whether it was self-contained or "chained" to a later entry (which may or may not be the next entry....As for your DOS 720K floppies, they generally contain 1K clusters (512 bytes per sector, 2 sectors per cluster). Data to calculate these and other values are stored in a reserved system area on the disk; it IS legal to use an alternate scheme, as such scheme can be calculated from the disk parm block. Re the Rainbow Lotus disks: Yep, they've already been passed along and graciously received by a client. Thanks again. Msg 44885 is 09 line(s) on 06/22/91 from JERRY OLSEN to RICHARD GOZDAL re: R/SHAREWARE SURVEY Though your comments weren't too closely connected to the question (and focus of the article), I appreciate the reply. I've captured your thoughts --maybe they'll tie into some tangents as the manuscript takes form....The questionnaire did go out this week. As I'd noted on it, if by chance you receive it and can get it back by this coming Friday, the 28th (ABSOLUTE latest), your input still might be usable. I'll be turning to the piece early in the week but may or may not wind it up till Friday. If not mailed before then, I'll have to pop for FedEx, so the incentive for an earlier completion is there. :-} Msg 44886 is 24 line(s) on 06/23/91 from ANDY SHAPIRO to WARD/ALL re: /OFF I have a couple of CP/M floppy & RAM disk only machines equipped with screen blankers. Since these use about 10 watts or so in standby mode (and since the disk drives have to run for some time to load up the RAM disks), I tend to leave these on, for as long as six months at a stretch. They work fine, and I suspect that, given their age (which is about 7 years), this has to do with this mode of treatment. On the other hand, I have a PC at work that I shut down at the end of each day. My reasoning is that nothing mechanical (per se) is going on in the CP/M boxes, so they should be nice and stable. On the other hand, the PC is a noisy little sucker with hard disk whining and fan buzzing. If something should go MECHANICALLY wrong with these parts, bye-bye machine. So, as long as the machine is running ONLY electronics, and is in a reasonable, well-ventilated place, I would tend to leave it on. If it has a lot of things that make noise, I would turn it off. BTW, some of the newer lap tops DO have a hard disk power-down setting, so that the disk stops spinning after a few minutes w/o access. Now, if we could only get rid of the fershlugginer fans! On the topic of power conservation -- Ward, how much power does your work save by shutting down the A/C? I would think that cooling an overheated building down to reasonable working temperatures would cost more than keeping it on for the weekend, but I could well be wrong... No dup. chars. >Function:?